Why The Toyobaru relationship ending means nothing and possibly something

"Jonathon Klein" (jonathon-klein) 06/24/2014 at 12:29 • Filed to: Subaru Toyota things

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We have had some wild !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! of late, as is done on the interwebs, about the possibility of Toyota ending its relationship with Subaru in context with the BRZ/FR-S twins. Subaru helped Toyota come back into the sports car segement with the awesome little RWD twins. But now with Toyota partnering with BMW on some upcoming sports car, the FT-1/Supra perhaps, Toyota is rethinking its partnership with its sister brand Subaru.

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The official word is that there is no official word. The man behind the twins Tetsuya Tada only said that Subaru might not be involved with the next generation twins, and that a BMW collaboration is "one possibility." This by no means actually conveys anything in regards to the future of Subaru's BRZ.

Here come the vague open answers! What it does do, is make the case pointing to the relative possibility for another piece of interesting news that came out of Subaru awhile back, in that they are considering reviving the SVX nameplate. For those that don't know, or don't remember the SVX, don't feel bad. 98% of all Subaru employees over the last 30yrs don't even remember the SVX.

Essentially it was a car with AWD and billed as a grand tourer that Subaru made in the mid 90's, and was a colossal flop only selling around 8000 cars total over the course of 3 years. However, recent !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! inside Subaru point out that the brass may want to revive the platform.

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Here is where speculation and rumblings come into play. If Toyota decides to end the partnership with Subaru, in favor of their partnership with BMW, this leaves Subaru left without a two door sports car, thus making it a possibility that they could be more open to actually coming out with a new generation of the SVX.

Because this is the internet, where speculation and rumblings mean truth, and by the process of inference and astrology, this means that we will be getting a new Supra, a new 86, at least 15 new BMWs based on one platform and a new SVX that will have the best looking concept ever, but then turn into some shitty beige wannabe that every enthusiast and journo will hate, but somehow be bought in good numbers. It will be called some crazy stupid name first like the Subaru Mioface', or the Subaru Mahna Mahna, then in the end, something dull, like the Subaru Desert, or Subaru Dog Lover.

Hopefully we can actually get some real information soon. Maybe with actual production details or things we can confirm. But in the meantime, cry Subaru and let loose the internet trolls!

You can find me here on !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! with no pants.

Ilike_cougars > Jonathon Klein 06/24/2014 at 12:53

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I dont think they would completely stop making the BRZ, it is still a good platform, so money cruncher will probably keep the BRZ alive even after the agreement ends with Toyota.

Stephen Krogmeier > Ilike_cougars 06/24/2014 at 13:02

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Not only that, but without Toyota's input on the car, it might leave Subaru open to do an STI version. Especially if toyota stops allowing them to use their injection tech on the engine, gotta make power somehow.

Ilike_cougars > Stephen Krogmeier 06/24/2014 at 13:15

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Exactly, in the process we may be getting the BRZ that we always wanted. Good times ahead I reckon.

Dusty Ventures > Jonathon Klein 06/24/2014 at 14:00

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I'd drive a car called the Mahna Mahna, singing the whole time.

Jonathon Klein > Dusty Ventures 06/24/2014 at 14:17

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Do do dedoodoo, do do do do!

Noah > Jonathon Klein 06/24/2014 at 16:52

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Subaru is not a sister brand of Toyota. Toyota doesn't own enough of a share in Subaru and with only one common model doesn't share enough products with Toyota to be considered sister brands. Please don't disparage Subaru by leaking it with dull as dishwater Toyota

Jonathon Klein > Noah 06/25/2014 at 08:01

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Toyota owns 15% of Subaru. How is that not enough?

RightFootDown > Jonathon Klein 06/25/2014 at 11:10

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Hey Jonathon, how can we get in contact with you? Please email me— jtaylor at RightFootDown. Dot com, of course.

Jonathon Klein > RightFootDown 06/25/2014 at 11:17

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sent

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Jonathon Klein 06/25/2014 at 11:56

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As a current Subaru SVX owner, and Subaru enthusiast (mostly in the past tense case... I can't bring myself to like much about current subaru products...)

I have been vocally advocating for a new platform-shared, EZ36D-powered new SVX Grand Touring Coupe, preferably designed by a reputable design firm, like ItalDesign, for half a decade. I have been temporarily banned from subaru forums for speaking at length about it, when nobody had any interest in listening.

I'll believe it when I see it on a dealer lot.... and then we'll see how badly Subaru has 'fubar'd' it anyway... like they have done with most of their product line already, by trying to mainstream their products too much, and making most of them far too bland...

Their performance cars have become far too limited. BRZ is too limited on practicality and power, WRX/STI is too limited on practicality of body-style, and too limited by being so closely tied with Impreza, which we were told would be less closely derived this time.

BRZ shouldn't have existed. I have been blasted for saying that from the moment FT-86 project became known to be RWD-only. Maybe FR-S has a case for existing as a RWD only coupe, but Subaru should have put a "Subaru Boxer powered" logo on it, and left it at that.

Frankly... Toyota should have re-made the MR2 instead. They should have revived the SW20 2nd generation MR2 style, with an FA20 (and FA20DIT optional) boxer and 2WD adapted subaru transaxle under the back of the chassis, like a junior, half-priced, flat-4 Cayman. If FFR can build the 818 as a kit-car chassis that way... Toyota could have built a mid-engined production car. AE86 Corolla was an inexpensive stick-axle economy coupe. Toyota has better cars from their past to revive than that.

Subaru's sport coupe should have been a revival of the GC-type coupe in WRX or 22B STI trim in the 1990s. A sport coupe format of Subaru's turbocharged AWD drivetrain prowess. If THAT were here, we would see how well it would sell to people who drive in variable driving conditions, year round, and how well a performance car can grip with AWD... It seems to help Nissan GT-R, Porsche 911 Turbo, Audi R8, Lamborghini, and Ferrari FF. Why not an affordable Subaru at Mustang-competitive price points?

The tragedy of the Toyota-Subaru sport coupe collaboration, is that it gave Toyota what it wanted, not Subaru, and now Toyota is looking to one-up and discard it with it's competitor, BMW, instead; and Subaru lost time and opportunity developing and building FT-86 for Toyota. Now Toyota says no to turbocharged FA20DIT, or any other upgrade, and Subaru is locked in to it, until it is over.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Ilike_cougars 06/25/2014 at 12:00

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Why? It is a money loser for Subaru. BRZ isn't selling, and it isn't aligned with Subaru's philosophy, anyway... and it isn't a compelling product against it's RWD coupe competition, nor the drop-top Miata.

It is a good chassis... but it isn't being used to it's advantage. The car is unde-powered, and otherwise significantly impractical, without the benefit of lifestyle appeal like a 'roadster' convertible, like Miata has.

BRZ shouldn't have been a Subaru product, and Subaru should have stuck with it's core strength... AWD all-road, all-weather superiority... and that should have been built into a sport coupe of an appropriate size, with a more versatile rear hatchback, rather than a minuscule little trunk, and a claustrophobic interior.

Jonathon Klein > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 06/25/2014 at 12:02

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Here is my other article that I wrote for The Smoking Tire about the Toyota Subaru relationship. http://www.thesmokingtire.com/2014/the-toyot… And I agree with most of your points.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Jonathon Klein 06/25/2014 at 12:40

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Nice article. I am not sure who is more at fault... Toyota's massive-corporate mentality, or weak decision making within Subaru management, but I have been getting into trouble for years predicting this, and Subaru fan-boys didn't want to hear it... but it seems like enthusiast dis-satisfaction with Subaru is more common than it was.

It is weird... a week or so ago, when rumors of a new SVX came out... subaru enthusiast board response was generally positive... when in the past I was all but run out of the forum on a rail for being too loud an advocate for the idea.

The sad part is... after Legacy went down, after Forester went down, after WRX under-delivered, and Subaru deliberately bait-and-switched their enthusiast community with the WRX Design Concept, compared to the pre-production test car that leaked just a couple weeks later... I don't trust Subaru to make any good decisions any more.

If they do explore a new SVX... I don't know that they have the mentality to make it a good car now... as badly as I would want to see a new SVX with modern tech... my '92 LS-L was advanced for it's day, innovative, and well built. Arguably better screwed together than my 2005 Legacy GT was.

SVX was arguably before-its-time back then, and there wasn't a platform to share to contain costs, the way there is now. Legacy, Tribeca, and WRX STI parts, in the right mix with the right vision for the completed product and target, in a new streamlined, clean coupe body, and it is done. It could be more affordable and powerful than Audi A5 or Infiniti AWD Q-whatever coupe, and more versatile than Mustang, Camaro, Challenger, and Genesis coupe.

Jonathon Klein > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 06/25/2014 at 12:49

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It will definitely be interesting if they do decided to go that route. I've driven most of the new Subaru's apart from the new Rex's and they all kinda suck. With Toyota's corporate influence, and the need to Americanize the entire lineup. They've lost their uniqueness. I was offered a test drive of the new WRX from a local dealer as soon as they had one in. Maybe it's time to check it out.

Jonathon Klein > RightFootDown 06/25/2014 at 14:32

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Did you guys get my email?

RightFootDown > Jonathon Klein 06/25/2014 at 14:38

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I forwarded your address to Will. He should be pinging you some time today. I'll double check with him.

Jonathon Klein > RightFootDown 06/25/2014 at 14:40

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Cool, just wanted to make sure.

RightFootDown > Jonathon Klein 06/25/2014 at 14:58

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You should have received an email from Will at 1:12pm Eastern. Did you get it?

Jonathon Klein > RightFootDown 06/25/2014 at 15:00

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No, I didn't

Jonathon Klein > Jonathon Klein 06/25/2014 at 15:01

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Jonathon.klein@gmail.com

RightFootDown > Jonathon Klein 06/25/2014 at 15:03

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Interesting. Email will@rightfootdown.com or maybe check spam filters?

Jonathon Klein > RightFootDown 06/25/2014 at 15:06

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Found it in the spam filter

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Jonathon Klein 06/25/2014 at 15:31

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From what I have read in reviews, not first hand, but the issues with WRX are likely not technical draw-backs, other than my wishing that FA20DIT and the DCCD, 6-speed, limited-slip diff drivetrain of the STI were paired together, instead of either-or.

Mostly, I am unhappy that Subaru bait-and-switched with the WRX Design Concept, and then delivered a much blander car, inside and out... Plus I have given up on trunks for cars... without a hatch.... either as a 3-door fastback or shooting brake, or a 5-door wagonlet, or compact CUV with ride height... I am not interested in limiting the cargo capabilities of even a modestly sized car, to a tiny trunk lid opening.

That goes for a new SVX, also. The original SVX was a great car, save three things.

1: automatic-only gearbox, because they didn't have a manual gearbox that would stand up to the EG33's abundant and smooth torque delivery. They do now. Even the 4EAT automatic has heat issues trying to deal with that torque, and is the reason that EG33 was capped at 230 horsepower. It is capable of even more, even with 1992 era technology.

2: wheel bearings. They used under-sized wheel bearings for the mass of the car, and they tend to wear out more often than most other cars... a howling wheel bearing is what is keeping my 92 SVX off the road now, because I don't want to risk seizing it.

3: it isn't a hatchback. If it had been a hatchback like the ST160 Toyota Celica, or the 88-97 Ford Probe, with the glass-over-frame smooth pillar-less look to go with the rest of SVX's flush-fitting glass, it could have been instantly more cargo-versatile than it's tiny little trunk lid. There is plenty of space in terms of trunk floor, especially with the rear seat folded... but you can't fit anything through the trunk opening to take advantage of it.

A new SVX with an EZ-series flat 6, an STI-derived taller-geared transaxle and final drive, or an automated-clutch gearbox, and a fastback 3-door body style, and sleek designer looks like the Giugiaro-penned original SVX... based on Legacy/Tribeca chassis, with WRX/STI performance pieces added in where appropriate... SI-Drive, Eye-Sight, maybe things like HUD, OLED digital generated gauges, new generation climate controls, keyless entry and starting, and app-driven infotainment system such as Apple and Google are both developing... HID and LED exterior lighting, LED and electroluminescent interior lighting... Maybe also things like chassis dynamics control, electric assisted front and rear-assist steering, active torque vectoring on the rear or both axles; active magneto-rheological suspension... possibly even cross-linked hydro-pneumatic suspension... tied in with SI-Drive and torque-biasing center differential tech that Subaru already has... A new SVX done right, could be a technological tour-de-force, as the original was... but to the next level. Heck, if they wanted to, they could do butterfly doors, like some of their concept cars, McLarens, and the Toyota Sera had, and have the iconic window-in-a-window treatment, with wide panoramic applications of glass for outward visibility.

But I don't know that Subaru has the mentality to do it, and do it right, anymore.

Jonathon Klein > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 06/25/2014 at 15:47

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I hope some of that insanity that brought out their rally program and the 22b still lives there. I actually have an article on an SVX drift car build that I hope will be coming out soon. Not in my hands sadly. I loved learning about the car, because I loved the look of that thing. Even if it was such a poor seller. I think they could put together something in the middle of the range 35-40k price range that would encompass all the things you stated above. But lets just cross our fingers, eyes, legs, and everything else and hope and pray that maybe Subaru hasn't lost their way completely.

I think with the reaction and dissatisfaction that they received after the new WRX was unveiled has them rethinking things. Especially since they just came out and said that the next Impreza will be more closely related to the concept.

J.Smathers > Jonathon Klein 07/15/2014 at 23:10

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Are there any exact quotes to refer to Toyota and Subaru splitting and Toyota working with BMW on the next 86-type?

Jalop articles continue to refer to this, but to me, when I was originally reading statements from Toyota, it seemed very crystal clear that:
1. Toyota and Subaru will continue to work on the common lightweight, 4-cyl RWD 2-door (Corolla/Celica).
2. Toyota is teaming up with BMW to make a high end, higher performance RWD 2-door: The FT-1 prototype, using US Toyota/CALTY (SoCal) team's design cues/exterior, packing (OBVIOUSLY!) a turbocharged inline-6 and possibly (probably) a V8 (for racing) (Supra/low ball LFA).

Am I the only one this makes sense to? I think two decades of Toyota sucking at making consumer performance cars has lead people to misunderstand them.

Jonathon Klein > J.Smathers 07/16/2014 at 07:59

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No, it makes sense, but the lead engineer of the project, I wanna say Tetsyu, said that the future with Subaru is up in the air. But then Subaru head this and said nope not having any of it and confirmed they would be working on the next generation of the twins.

J.Smathers > Jonathon Klein 07/19/2014 at 00:23

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I read into it, and ya, Tetsuya Tada is the lead engineer.

And he's apparently the entire problem with the project. Look it up, he's the one indicating they may drop Subaru and work with BMW, understandable, that's business - but he's apparently the moron (in charge, no less) who believes they shouldn't turbocharge it at all either.

Jonathon Klein > J.Smathers 07/20/2014 at 20:52

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Yeah, hopefully someone else gets the project and they finally do it. But then again that might be too much hp so that the new Supra would be challenged too much so I doubt they will now.

J.Smathers > Jonathon Klein 07/23/2014 at 23:36

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I understand but absolutely despise that line of thinking.